Burrocrat's Account

[etftalk]

Good luck Burrocrat!

[burrocrat]

Thanks ETF Talk, i was about to ask for an account thread but you were way ahead of me.

11/09/09 Bought SCHA at $25.65, filled 9:30 am, brokerage account.

11/09/09 Bought SCHX at $25.52, filled 9:30 am, roth ira acount.

I placed market orders before the open looking at 11/06/09 closing prices, SCHA $25.00 and SCHX $25.12, looks like they both opened up significantly when my orders got filled.

[burrocrat]

I should probably have known the answers to these questions before i jumped in the water without looking, but at least the pool is only ankle deep, so the worst i could do is break my ankles right? lessons learned:

1) obbiously etf's are a different animal than regular mutual or tsp funds, i was used to buying closing prices and got burned by a large gap up open by placing a market order before the bell. note to self, purchase the market when the market is open.

2) i notice on the trade confirmations that one of the funds had a -0.01 discount and one had a 0.08 premium. i guess this means i paid that much more (or less) per share than the market price? i did not notice this info when i placed the trades, will have to pay more attention next time.

3) we are talking only a few hundred dollars per trade so i put all my available cash in up to an even number of shares, account summary shows i now own the shares but trades don't settle until 11/13, most of my balance is tied up in unsettled funds. what happens if i want to sell before then? do i have to wait until it settles to sell the shares? if i can sell before settlement, and then have two unsettled transactions, do they just keep a running tally of what happened when and eventually i realize a net gain or loss? if so, can i continue to do this multiple times? i read a thread by xlentlady about never trading with unsettled funds but don't understand why, i wonder if i'm about to learn another lesson the hard way here?

4) trade confirmation says schwab acted as my agent on this transaction, did i buy their own shares from them at a big gap up plus premium, or did i get these from a actual private owner of the shares? no fees no limits sounds enticing but apparently the game is structured in favor of the house?

I like the freedom these accounts offer and think i can utilize it to my advantage, but obviously there are some details i need to get more familiar with to maximize the opportunity here.

[burrocrat]

11/09/09 Bought SCHX at $25.52, filled 9:30 am, roth ira acount.

11/17/09 Sold half of shares SCHX at $26.14, market order filled immediately at 3:01 pm, net profit $0.62 per share, +2.43%.

Kept half of the originally purchased shares still in, made the transaction mainly to figure out what happens on the sell end of things. Premium said $0.16 and last price at $26.18. I got $26.14 and a note that said 'estimated exchange fee 0.01'. Still don't understand the premium/discount thing, i know i paid much more than last closing price when i bought in, big gap up open and maybe the premium thing, or is that reflected in the price of the shares real time?

[burrocrat]

Oh well, made more than if i'd kept it in cash. No transaction fees, i can so far trade as often as i want, see the results of the transaction right away and not have to use the crystal ball by 10:00 am MT to figure out where it might close that afternoon. I wonder if i do a lot of these small transactions if they will cut me off or start charging per trade? Maybe make me do a normal/larger number of shares like 100 as in stock trades? Do they still make you buy stock in lots of 100 or has that changed in my years away from the private investment market?

[burrocrat]

11/17/09 Sold half of shares SCHX at $26.14, market order filled immediately at 3:01 pm, net profit $0.62 per share, +2.43%.

Kept half of the originally purchased shares still in, made the transaction mainly to figure out what happens on the sell end of things. Premium said $0.16 and last price at $26.18. I got $26.14 and a note that said 'estimated exchange fee 0.01'. Still don't understand the premium/discount thing, i know i paid much more than last closing price when i bought in, big gap up open and maybe the premium thing, or is that reflected in the price of the shares real time?

Oops, sell date should read 11/16/09 there. No wonder things seemed a little off all day, and all those documents i signed and stamped today... on the bright side it looks like i got all my filing already done for tomorrow.

[alevin]

Hey Burro, welcome. Haven't been here in awhile. Saw your question about discounts and premiums. Not quite what you were thinking. Discount means the ETF shares are undervalued/oversold relative to their Net Asset Value (NAV)and likely that the bigger traders will start buying to push price back up closer to NAV.

If the ETF is currently at a premium over NAV, then its more than likely the bigger traders will sell it down soon to push the price back to NAV or closer to it anyway. Not a good idea to buy at a premium in other words. Better to buy while discounted. The closer the price is to NAV, the more likely it could go either way short-term, but also the more likely you are buying at actual value. Hope that helps.

[burrocrat]

11/19/09 bought SCHF at $25.54, roth

[burrocrat]

thanks alevin, that makes more sense. so a premium means i am paying more than the underlying securities are worth, discount means ETF is on sale relative to it's holdings, and one can expect things to move closer towards nuetral around the true NAV.

i should have checked the forum before i made the last trade. $0.25 premium, oops. at least the price you see is the price you pay, i was worried the premium/discount was being added to the quote price when placing an order, eliminates some confusion there.

[burrocrat]

11/19/09 bought SCHF at $25.54, roth

11/24/09 sold half of shares SCHF at $25.76, +0.86%, roth.

I realize these small trades don't make sense when transaction fees are involved, but i've been trading commission free no limits, just going to keep stair stepping small gains up until they tell me I can't anymore.

[JTH]

11/24/09 sold half of shares SCHF at $25.76, +0.86%, roth.

I realize these small trades don't make sense when transaction fees are involved, but i've been trading commission free no limits, just going to keep stair stepping small gains up until they tell me I can't anymore.

Nothing wrong with scalping money. No commission? That's crazy I wish I had that deal, I'm losing 20 bucks every time I jump in & out. :wacko:

[burrocrat]

No commission? That's crazy

It's a loss leader i'm sure, only for Schwab clients, only on Schwab funds (limited offerings), only for online trades.

Buy hey, they track basic indexes, indexes move up and down, i can move in and out, for free, any time i feel like it.

Regular prices are $13, or $9 if you do 120+ trades per year, that's a lot to pay for a little hand holding, i don't think most on this board need much of that, even competitors at $7 is steep to me. it will take some time (and more expertise on my part) before i can acquire the resources and identify smarter instruments to make that economical.

Unlike when i was younger and more idealistic, now if it moves and i can hit it i'm in there, get some.

On the bright side, excellent customer service, i can move money from outside bank account into checking (pays 0.75%), brokerage, or roth ira. Once in i can move between accounts freely on a one-time or recurring basis. Can also withdraw to outside bank from any account, no debit fees, free checks, sounds too good to be true, what have i got to lose, something has to give here sometime, but so far i've been taking.

[burrocrat]

trying something new here, trying to ride the holiday sentiment. at about 11:10 am ET i placed day-only limit orders for:

SCHA at 25.80, trading at 25.68, basis = 25.65

SCHX at 26.25, trading at 26.11, basis = 25.52

SCHF at 26.20, trading at 26.12, basis = 25.54

thought about pulling the trigger then but it always goes higher after i sell. of course that could happen with a limit order too, but at least i would get a price i've already decided i'm comfortable with. then again maybe i set the targets a little high. if all of these go through then it's all cash position, if not maybe black friday will show me some green.

[burrocrat]

11/19/09 bought SCHF at $25.54, roth

11/25/09 sold remaining 1/2 of original position SCHF at 26.20, limit order filled at 2:51 pm, +$0.66 per share, +2.58%.

Average profit for this position in a 2-part sale is $0.44 per share, +1.72%.

SCHX and SCHA didn't get near the limits i set. That limit thing is cool, don't have to keep watching, and don't get burned by a spread - placing market order at a last price and getting a few cents less.

[burrocrat]

11/27/09 bought SCHF at $25.43 put half of stake back in.

also have an open limit order for the other half at $25.20

[burrocrat]

limit order for SCHF didn't fill. wish i had sold SCHA and SCHX wednesday when i had the chance, gonna have to wait a bit for them to cross to the upside it looks like.

[alevin]

so, Burro, who are you trading with for your commfree trades? Mine cost $15/trade plus 1% annually.....maybe I need to move my accounts or open another....

[burrocrat]

so, Burro, who are you trading with for your commfree trades? Mine cost $15/trade plus 1% annually.....maybe I need to move my accounts or open another....

charles schwab online, fits my low stakes game, open an online checking linked to brokerage account and no minimums, checking pays 0.75%, free checks and reimburse debit card fees, also opened up a roth ira to shuttle extra tsp contributions, backed that down to 5% and matching funds, all extra goes to roth, brokerage, and checking at 5% each, trying to build a cushion here.

lots of 'one-source' mutual funds have no sales fees if you hold them 6 months, most ETF's cost 12.95 per trade, discount for high volume traders. you can trade schwab ETF's for free, only four offerings, with 4 more coming in december.

basic index plays here, not the sharpest tools in the shed, but playing with them for free. transaction fees and expense ratios would kill me on any other offerings at my levels. full range of trading options, market, limit, stop orders etc.

simple strategy, play bounces for 1-2% gains, keep bi-weekly contributions flowing, grow the balance.

[burrocrat]

adding to positions across the board:

11/30/09 Buy SCHA at 24.91, -0.54 discount, brokerage;

11/30/09 Buy SCHX at 25.72, -0.39 discount, roth ira;

11/30/09 Buy SCHF at 25.45, -0.59 discount, roth ira.

[burrocrat]

anyone have ideas on how to play natural gas long over an extended time horizon? maybe 6 months to 2 years? without options or futures? no margin capabilities and don't know enough about contracts to commit real money.

i think excess supply will pull demand in it's favor, how low can it go?

[etftalk]

I own UNG - but is killing me because it is not moving with the price of Nat Gas as it is supposed to.

[burrocrat]

liquidating positions across the board:


11/27/09 bought SCHF at $25.43 put half of stake back in.

and: 11/30/09 Buy SCHF at 25.45, -0.59 discount, roth ira.

12/01/09 Sell all SCHF at 26.00, average in is 25.44, +0.56 per share, +2.20%.

[burrocrat]

11/09/09 Bought SCHX at $25.52, filled 9:30 am, roth ira acount.

and: 11/30/09 Buy SCHX at 25.72, -0.39 discount, roth ira;

12/01/09 Sell all SCHX at 26.01, average in 25.62, +1.52%.

man this free trading thing is fun.

[burrocrat]

11/30/09 Buy SCHA at 24.91, -0.54 discount, brokerage;

12/01/09 Sell 1/2 position SCHA at 25.40, +0.49 per share, +1.97%.

Left the original purchase still in, 1/2 of position, gonna do the buy and hold thing on this part: 11/09/09 Bought SCHA at $25.65, filled 9:30 am, brokerage account.

[burrocrat]

brokerage website shows:

roth ira account +2.27%.

brokerage account +0.55%.

I don't know if these are exactly right, something seems missing here.

I've just been doing some simple math: current account value - contributions in / contributions in = %.

Santa is bringing me some new software so i will input trade history and see how it shakes out.

Pretty sure the numbers will come out positive though.

[burrocrat]

Now if my latest payroll contributions would clear i might have enough to justify commissions on a real investment.

Looking at natural gas on a multiyear time horizon, but it would chop 1.5% of my current balance on both ends of the trade, gonna take a pretty big jump to the upside to make that economical.

researching possibilities anyway.

[burrocrat]

2) i notice on the trade confirmations that one of the funds had a -0.01 discount and one had a 0.08 premium. i guess this means i paid that much more (or less) per share than the market price? i did not notice this info when i placed the trades, will have to pay more attention next time.

3) we are talking only a few hundred dollars per trade so i put all my available cash in up to an even number of shares, account summary shows i now own the shares but trades don't settle until 11/13, most of my balance is tied up in unsettled funds. what happens if i want to sell before then? do i have to wait until it settles to sell the shares? if i can sell before settlement, and then have two unsettled transactions, do they just keep a running tally of what happened when and eventually i realize a net gain or loss? if so, can i continue to do this multiple times? i read a thread by xlentlady about never trading with unsettled funds but don't understand why, i wonder if i'm about to learn another lesson the hard way here?

Well it looks like trading unsettled funds is a go, so far so good.

And thanks, Alevin, for the premium/discount heads up, that has proved profitable.

[burrocrat]

well they've all moved higher since i pulled the trigger, dammed if you and dammed if you don't.

i don't like the little hit you take on the bid/ask with market orders, but the market seems to know when i placing limit orders and runs right past me.

profits is profits i guess, just goes to show i'm not as good at miming the tarket as i think i am.

not much fancy charting skills here, although it all goes into the mix, mostly a sentiment trader, the market after all is just a social construct.

[burrocrat]

Pretty sure the numbers will come out positive though.

Just had to go and tempt fate there didn't I?

12/01/09 Buy UNG at 9.04

profits from the recent free trades cover the transaction fee in, it will be up to the fund to carry the fee out and any gains.

checked out general energy plays as well as GAZ and UNG. UNG has lower expenses and more upside potential in my opinion.

target is $9.25 to cover commissions and grab minimum 2%.

buy and hold for the roth account here, slowing down a bit, new contributions should clear in a couple of days, will start again with free trades then.

[etftalk]

Commission free? Where do you trade?

[burrocrat]

dang i feel like i'm schilling for the brokerage site here, not my intention, there is a narrow window of opportunity for these trades but it has so far been profitable, sounding like a broken record, for the record:

schwab online allows clients to trade their in-house ETF funds with no commission but only four qualify for the deal, SCHB, SCHA, SCHX, SCHF, and they say they will add four more this month, mostly foriegn markets variations. trading these have allowed me to get familiar with the site and different types of orders without losing money in fees everytime i make a move.

The last trade on buy UNG cost 12.95 commission, and will cost another 12.95 when i sell. I set a minimum price target out that will net even, justified paying the transaction costs on that one because the small gains i made on trading the clunky SCH- funds can cover it.

That was more of a buy and hold type purchase to get commodities diversification in one of my retirement accounts, i will not be trading at 12.95 tax on both ends very often, need to move a large quantity of shares each transaction for that to be economical.

my strategy is to continue to identify a trading range/channel on the simple SCH- index funds, and pick off the highs and lows for a couple of percent each time. at my balances ($500-$1000 per trade) that only works when you are not paying commissions. but it does work.

[etftalk]

OK, thanks.

[burrocrat]

12/09/09 Buy SCHF at $25.37, regular brokerage account.

[burrocrat]

two new schwab funds to play with came online today.

SCHV: large cap value
SCHG: large cap growth

a couple more ways to fine tune the free trades, 6 funds total now.

[Bullitt]

Do these funds have redemption fees?

[burrocrat]

nope, only charges to my account on SCH- ETF's have been 'exchange fees' when selling, just a few pennies depending on how many shares, i'm guessing this is a market tax of some sort.

[burrocrat]

12/01/09 Buy UNG at 9.04

12/14/09 Sell UNG at 9.93, almost +10%, but trading commissions ate a good chunk of that.

That trade made me nervous, thought i'd taken a close look at it when i made the decision to buy, but soon after became aware of other factors that i didn't consider, what the heck is contango anyway, though i still think there is a lot of upside there. Paying trading commissions is only going to work for me on a long-term buy and hold, and that one wasn't it.

Bottom line is i know i didn't understand the investment and was uneasy every day it was in the portfolio, had to jump off the boat while we were in shallow water and i still had the positive return life jacket on.

Whew, i feel much better now.

[burrocrat]

Left the original purchase still in, 1/2 of position, gonna do the buy and hold thing on this part: 11/09/09 Bought SCHA at $25.65, filled 9:30 am, brokerage account.

12/14/09 Sell SCHA at $26.38, +$0.73 per share, +2.8%.

took the other half of that trade down, juicy prices and lock in gains, will put it back in on the next drop.

[burrocrat]

12/09/09 Buy SCHF at $25.37, regular brokerage account.

12/14/09 Sell SCHG at $25.81, +$0.44 per share, +1.7%.

All cash positions now in brokerage and roth accounts, should see some volatility in the next few weeks to get back in, freeing up funds for a possible move on SLV or GLD if the right opportunity presents itself.

[burrocrat]

oops, reread last post and it should be sell SCHF, not G. haven't bought SCHG yet.

[burrocrat]

well we got some drop so far today, going to pick off best price and get back in for santa rally in stocks.

placed day-only limit orders for:

SCHF to buy at $25.06, now at 25.14

SCHV to buy at $25.01, now at $25.05

let's see if it can drift a little lower in the next few hours and hit my limits.

[burrocrat]

12/17/09 Buy SCHV at $25.05, roth.

i adjusted limits with about an hour left in the day, filled SCHV at 3:46 pm. the SCHF didn't get there.

[burrocrat]

12/18/09 buy SCHF at $25.04, roth.

[burrocrat]

12/18/09 buy SCHF at $25.04, roth.

Sell SCHF at $26.40, +$1.36 per share, +5.43%, roth.

Heady stuff here, got me scared. I'm trying to learn how to take profits and be patient.

I hope we re-enter the trading channel, easy pickings there, i hate to be out now, if this thing lights up for a few days i'm in the dust, but just too much dumb money sentiment playing this roll, gotta go.

[burrocrat]

12/17/09 Buy SCHV at $25.05, roth.

Sell SCHV at $25.58, +$0.53 per share, +2.12%, roth.

[burrocrat]

well that's all out of the market except in the work retirement account, all cash now in both brokerage and roth accounts.

funny, i opened these accounts to diversify and do the buy-and-hold thing, but have ended up swing trading instead. also, the brokerage was supposed to be the speculative account but roth ira has out performed it 3 to 1.

i'm still working on getting some new software up to track these accounts, but simple calculations show: [(current balance - contributions in) / (contributions in)] = x

roth ira x = +10.2%
brokerage x = +3.06%

not bad since early november inception. i'm totally confused as to the near-term market direction, just going to get out and wait, though i'm afraid i could be missing a great ride here.

[burrocrat]

01/11/10: Buy COW at $28.20

seasonal feeder calf supply play in a recovering economy, 3 to 9 month sell window, unless it returns profits sooner.

[burrocrat]

01/10/10: Buy COW at $28.20

seasonal feeder calf supply play in a recovering economy, 3 to 9 month sell window, unless it returns profits sooner.


should read 01/11/10, that's twice i've got the day wrong, at least i got the year right.

[burrocrat]

getting close on the COW trade, bought at 28.20, closed today at 29.77, been debating pulling the sell trigger for a week now.

i haven't done the back testing but i think this is a solid annual play, not every cattle operation works this way but in my neck of the plains supply is heavy in fall and light in spring, on a national whole market level this does affect live cattle prices, the degree varies based on the cattle cycle but it is real and playable every year i think, boots on the ground helps inform decisions though, i know lots of folks that live or die on these prices every year - not with securities but the actual animals, and they take it very seriously.

eonomy of scale comes into play, a decent gain but playing 100 shares vs. 1000 makes a huge difference, at least my online brokerage reduced the cost per trade but at my levels it is still a good size premium to give up.

got the play right, don't have the volume just now to maximize profits. i went aggressive in the retirement account for a couple of months (easier to bet with house money) and held mostly cash except for this commodity play in the real (all mine) accounts as a balancing strategy, considering liquadating all and starting over, the winds of change are blowing.

[burrocrat]

01/11/10: Buy COW at $28.20

seasonal feeder calf supply play in a recovering economy, 3 to 9 month sell window, unless it returns profits sooner.

03/17/10: sell COW at 29.77, +1.57 per share, +5.5%.

just don't have the volume to offset trading commissions and keep a decent profit, going back to the free trades.

[burrocrat]

flush with christmas cash, back in the game.

brokerage account, placed limit order for UNG at $5.75, let's see if it gets filled.

[etftalk]

Good luck burro! UNG has been a tough nut to crack. Every time it looks like it wants to bottom, it shoots back down, breaks the new trend, takes out my stops, then heads back up.

[burrocrat]

oh man, there's so much i want to buy, but none of it is on sale. just way overpriced crap.

best buy i could find was UNG, hell ever time my utility bill goes up i want to buy a new furnace, but nat gas is the next best thing right? got to be others out there like me.

didn't get filled but i'll keep looking, of course with high oil prices lots more activity taking place and byproducts like gas, if it don't just get burned off, will be in increasing supply, but goldamit when it's cold you'll pay anything, over a barrel so to speak.

just got to shoot me some fish is all now.

[etftalk]

FYI, I'm buying today's pullback from the highs in UNG. 5.835 was the price. My initial stop is 5.40.

[burrocrat]

i had day-only limit orders to buy at $5.75 that didn't fill this week, trying to eek out a few more pennies. i think now is a good entry point, wishing i hadn't missed it for the sake of a nickel. i might be following you in here soon.

[burrocrat]

Roth IRA: Buy SCHF at $27.65 on a day-only limit order, got filled this afternoon.

tracks FTSE Developed ex US 1400, that family (11 funds) trades commission free at online brokerage, using as an outlet for IT's I fund buy signal today.

[burrocrat]

Brokerage Acct: Buy SCHE at $28.87

tracks FTSE 740 all emerging index

[XL-entLady]

Your buys sound a lot less risky than UNG. Good luck with them!

Lady

[burrocrat]

just had to go and jinx me huh? i've been kicking myself all week for not getting in at $5.80.

placed a limit buy at $5.99 for UNG in brokerage acct, didn't think it would get there anyway, just wanted get it for less than $6.00, wouldn't you know the order filled at 2:28pm according to broker site.

Brokerage Acct: Buy UNG at $5.99 on 01/06/11

[burrocrat]

01/07/11: Roth IRA, Buy SCHE at $28.60

gimme more of that good stuff.

[burrocrat]

placed limit order for buy SCHX in roth account at $29.99, just in case the bottom falls out this afternoon.

(Dow large cap 750)

[etftalk]

Close: 30.05 low.

[burrocrat]

getting my can kicked on the UNG trade.

picked up SCHV at $29.49 first thing this morning.

order in for SCHX at $30.99.

both in ROTH IRA.

[XL-entLady]

getting my can kicked on the UNG trade.

picked up SCHV at $29.49 first thing this morning.

order in for SCHX at $30.99.

both in ROTH IRA.
SCHV has an interesting chart. Good luck with the trade!

[burrocrat]

SCHV has an interesting chart. Good luck with the trade!

care to elaborate?

maybe teach a mostly sentiment guy a little technical stuff?

brokerage says SCHX buy order got filled around noon today at $30.99 in ROTH IRA.

[XL-entLady]

care to elaborate?

maybe teach a mostly sentiment guy a little technical stuff?

brokerage says SCHX buy order got filled around noon today at $30.99 in ROTH IRA.
Well, it looks like SCHV's prices follow a good wave pattern, up and down but in an upward trend. And yesterday was the third down day, but the daily price action shows that buyers came in at the last and pushed the price up. Now today is an up day from yesterday. And you're above the 200 and 50 day moving averages, and the 50 is above the 200. Until the trend reverses, the EFT looks good to me.

The only thing I would worry about is that there is not much diversification between SCHX and SCHV. If one is good they both are and if one goes bad they'll both go down.

Questions? I don't even pretend to be an expert but I'll try to answer.

[burrocrat]

i placed a few sell orders to trigger at about 1% up from yesterdays close, if the market starts running i'll be mostly holding cash and losers.

[burrocrat]

roth ira:

schx in 30.99 out 31.54 = 1.77%
schf in 27.65 out 29.35 out = 6.12%
schv in 29.49 out 29.79 = 1.02%

still holding:

sche in 28.60 current 28.47 = -0.46%

brokerage acct:

sche in 28.87 current 28.47 = -1.39%
ung in 5.99 current 5.05 = ouch, and that's before 8.95 fees each way.

[burrocrat]

sell orders in for the emerging markets fund sche in both roth and brokerage set at break even or just a bit more.

gonna have to hold ung until it goes to zero or i get my money back.

let me out of this crazy market.

[burrocrat]

this morning i put in 3 orders:

schf at $26.49 filled at 9:31am, i see it went about 0.25 lower fast but i got what i got when i got it.

scha at $33.99 didn't hit.

schx at $29.99 didn't hit. adjusted at lunch to $30.25 didn't hit.

i don't day trade, work restrictions, but it works, sometimes, plus i got a job.

[burrocrat]

open orders:

scha @ 34.49
schx @ 30.49

[burrocrat]

buy schx @ 30.49 at 9:39 am.

cancelled scha order at noon.

[burrocrat]

i accidentally hit a 2 instead of a 1 on the schx buy yesterday and didn't catch it until it had filled. i got a double block of shares, could be good could be a bad thing, but i'm going to try to clear out half the position at not a loss to get back to the allocation i was after.

limit sell order for schx @ 30.75 = ~1%

[burrocrat]

i accidentally hit a 2 instead of a 1 on the schx buy yesterday and didn't catch it until it had filled. i got a double block of shares, could be good could be a bad thing, but i'm going to try to clear out half the position at not a loss to get back to the allocation i was after.

limit sell order for schx @ 30.75 = ~1%

didn't hit.

limit sell schx @ 30.99 before the open today, 1/2 position, c'mon 1.5%

[burrocrat]

still trying to unload 1/2 position schx, limit sell order at 31.00 for 03/21/11.

[burrocrat]

still trying to unload 1/2 position schx, limit sell order at 31.00 for 03/21/11.

didn't hit, again. maybe i'm being just a bit greedy here, i just want 1 block of these shares off the table at any kind of profit, got my whole allocation all screwed up, nervous.

[burrocrat]

finally dumped 1/2 position schx at 31.11 9:54 am says transaction history, ~ 2%, close enough.

[burrocrat]

roth ira bought sche at 28.60 limit day only sell at 28.75, too heavy in the international, this one has been negative from the start, just looking to get out even ~ 1/2%

if it fills it will leave me in 60% cash for this account
20% acct is in schf buy 26.49 current 28.68 ~ +8%
20% acct is in schx buy 30.49 current 31.17 ~ +2%

[burrocrat]

brokerage account is all in just two positions

sche buy at 28.87 current 28.59 ~ -1%
ung buy at 5.99 current 11.53 but there was split or something happened there now it got half the shares but they're worth double what's up with that? anyway i got a twofer on this one all right, i managed to get in at both the wrong time and the wrong price, ~ 7% by the numbers but the commissions on the buy/sell make it even worse.

[burrocrat]

roth: sell SCHE at $28.66 on 03/29/11, in at $28.60. i got out at +0.2% just to get rid of it, already hold a block of these in the brokerage account, too heavy on the international.

SCHH is a new ETF i'm going to add to the roth acct should be no tax consequences, and no trade commissions, and a 0.13% expense ratio, tracks Dow Jones U.S. Select REIT Index.

that should give me a decent distribution in SCHX, SCHF, and SCHH for 60% of acct. value, got them at prices i'm happy with, good prospects for long term hold, play around with hit and git trades with the remaining 40%.

[burrocrat]

bought 2 blocks of SCHH at 26.25 and 26.21 first thing this morning, 1 to hold and one to flip. thought about turning 1/2 of it this afternoon for a quick 1% scalp but i like the entry price and will wait a bit on the trade.

goals for this account is to spread 20% each in 5 categories at prices i believe will be good long term holds, then with added monies keep same positions but do the in/out 2% scalp with the extra blocks of shares. i've got SCHX (large cap) at currently a 3.5% unrealized gain, SCHF (international) at +8.5%, and now SCHH at +1% daily gain with an extra block to dump for some fast money.

i'm looking to add SCHA (small caps) and SCHP (TIPS treasuries) to round things out but don't like the high prices, just won't buy them here, like gold when it was at $1,000 just don't see it's utility at the price, what do i know?

i want this row of 5 switches in front of me with a base in each one started at a price that provides enough unrealized gains to ride out +/- 5% swings without losing, then pound extra shares on and off for 2% scalps. that's the plan anyway.

[burrocrat]

change of plans, day-only limit sell orders on everything, looking for a little spike on the open, might have set them a little high, bail bail bail.

roth:
SCHX ~ 4.25%
SCHF ~ 9.50%
SCHH ~ 1.25% (1/2 position)

brokerage:
SCHE ~ 1.00%

if they hit it will leave me with mostly cash except for an REIT in the roth and seriously underwater UNG in the brokerage, how's that for diversification?

[burrocrat]

roth:
sell SCHH in at 26.21 out at 26.61 = +1.53%
sell SCHX in at 30.49 out at 31.68 = +3.90%
sell SCHF in at 26.49 out at 28.89 = +9.10%
holding SCHH in at 26.25 current 26.75 unrealized gain = +1.90%

brokerage:
sell SCHE in at 28.87 out at 29.20 = +1.15%
holding UNG in at 5.99x2 current 11.50 = -4.00% but still have to factor in transaction fees in/out so this one will have to take a big move to break even.

[burrocrat]

roth:
sell SCHH in at 26.21 out at 26.61 = +1.53%
sell SCHX in at 30.49 out at 31.68 = +3.90%
sell SCHF in at 26.49 out at 28.89 = +9.10%
holding SCHH in at 26.25 current 26.75 unrealized gain = +1.90%

brokerage:
sell SCHE in at 28.87 out at 29.20 = +1.15%
holding UNG in at 5.99x2 current 11.50 = -4.00% but still have to factor in transaction fees in/out so this one will have to take a big move to break even.

1.53 + 3.90 + 9.10 + 1.15 / 4 = +3.92% gains locked in today. i'll take it.

[burrocrat]

brokerage account: bought ZSL at $15.09.

[burrocrat]

open GTC limit orders, can't day trade at work and my 'new every two' for the free smart phone isn't due yet:

Brokerage acct: ZSL in at $15.09, order to get out at $16.49 (1/2 position) and $17.99 (2nd 1/2).

Roth IRA: SCHH (REIT ETF) in at $26.25, order out at $28.75.

Holding UNG in brokerage at about break even minus commissions right now.

C'mon baby, hit and git.

[burrocrat]

I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.

[burrocrat]

I adjusted SCHH to sell at 28.88.

Added a buy for SCHF at 29.99.

[burrocrat]

So I'm looking at using trailing stop orders, but it confuses me.

If I understand correctedly, they're meant to increase possible gains but limit losses off a top in an advancing market. But you have to set the sell price below the current price when you places the order? That sounds more like a limit losses, not increase gains scenario?

Anybody, can you explain how it really works in plain english? Ideally using recent ZSL as an example?

[XL-entLady]

So I'm looking at using trailing stop orders, but it confuses me.

If I understand correctedly, they're meant to increase possible gains but limit losses off a top in an advancing market. But you have to set the sell price below the current price when you places the order? That sounds more like a limit losses, not increase gains scenario?

Anybody, can you explain how it really works in plain english? Ideally using recent ZSL as an example?
Okay, I'll try. Say you buy ZSL at $15 with a 2 point trailing stop. ZSL's initial TS would then be $13. ZSL moves to $16 so the TS moves to $14. ZSL moves clear up to $19, and TS is then $17. ZSL retraces back to $18, Ts is still $17, and if ZSL moves down one more dollar your stop will trigger and it will sell. You can also set the TS for a percentage rather than a price point differential. Clear as mud?

[alevin]

Glad someone around here pride-free enough to display confusion. I've had the same problem. the one time I tried to set a stop at the time I made a buy-it promptly went down and sold below my purchase price. Argh. so I've only set mental stops ever since. bad move? maybe, but I haven't lost $ because of it since then.

I'm sure one of these days I'll pay. but I won't set stops until I understand what I'm doing-and I still don't, not when it comes to setting stops at time of purchase. big frownie face.

[etftalk]

Brokerage acct: ZSL in at $15.09, order to get out at $16.49 (1/2 position) and $17.99 (2nd 1/2).

Looks like you're completely out. Nice trade!

[etftalk]

I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.
I stand corrected. :D

[etftalk]

Anybody, can you explain how it really works in plain english? Ideally using recent ZSL as an example?

This from Scottrade (http://www.scottrade.com)...

Trailing Stops for Beginners

By Kim R. Gibas, Senior Branch Manager, Delafield, Wis.
Trailing stop orders can be a very useful type of order, but they're commonly misunderstood. So, this is a follow-up article to Stop & Stop Limit Orders for Beginners that was published in the July issue of KnowHow News, and my goal is to demystify trailing stops for beginning investors.

Understanding Trailing Stop Orders

Trailing stop orders, like stop and stop limit orders, can help limit a loss or protect a gain. The key difference is that your order will move with the market and you will set a percentage or point trigger versus a set price per share. The trail will follow the stock as long as the stock continues to move in a direction that is favorable to you: up for a sell order and down for a buy order. Once the stock changes direction, the trail stays at its last price, and when the stock hits or passes that trail price, the order is triggered.
Your trail is updated based on the price of trades executed at or within the National Best Bid/Offer (NBBO), and the order also triggers off the NBBO (the bid price for sell orders and the ask price for buy orders).

Let's look at how this works with a few examples.

Sell Trailing Stop Orders
Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using a percentage:
Stock price is $38.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

As you can see, the trail is always 10% lower than the price of the stock. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $34.20 ($38.00 x 10% = $3.80; $38.00 - $3.80 = $34.20). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $46.80. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $46.00 in this case.

When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using points:

Stock price is $38.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

Once again, the trail is below the stock price by the selected amount, $3.00. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $35.00 ($38.00 - $3.00 = $35.00). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $49.00. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, or $46.00.

When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
In both examples, it is important to note, the trailing sell stop only goes up; it never goes down with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns downward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

Buy Trailing Stop Orders
Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using a percentage:
Stock price is $50.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

With buy orders, the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $49.50 ($45.00 x 10% = $4.50, $45.00 + $4.50 = $49.50). Then, when the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $31.90. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.
When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using points:

Stock price is $45.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

Notice the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $48.00 ($45.00 + $3.00 = $48.00). When the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $32.00. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.

When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
In both examples it is important to note, the trailing buy stop only goes down, it never goes up with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns upward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

The material provided in this article is for informational purposes only and its use does not guarantee a profit.

[XL-entLady]

I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.
Good luck with it. When things run up fast like your ZSL has, that's when I like to use trailing stops, FWIW. Others' mileage may vary.

[burrocrat]

I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.

I'm out on the 16.99 for 50 shares, 1.90 x 50 = $95 - $8.95 x 2 for the trades in and out = 77.1 / 50 = $1.54 / in at $15.09 = ~ 10%. I'll take it.

Is that how the math works when you guys do it? Plus, I only have to deduct the out commission on the next sell since I've accounted for the total in commission already.

Make the trade pay for itself and then play with house money.

It looks like it got up to about $18.25 today for a high, I wish I hadn't been so aggressive on the second half and got it out too. We'll see how it goes.

[burrocrat]

I adjusted SCHH to sell at 28.88.

Added a buy for SCHF at 29.99.

I'm glad the SCHH REIT didn't hit, I really like my entry of 26.25 for a long term hold in the ROTH account, but if it goes that high I'll probably be happy with the gain. Looks like it turned down with the market today, going to have to sit on this one I think.

SCHF international hit a low of $30.00, just missed my 29.99. Dang, so close, I would have liked that entry here.

[burrocrat]

Thanks for the help etftalk and XL-entlady.

So the problem seems to be setting the right spread on the trail then. That's a tall order on the ZSL the way it jumps around, you could easy see +/- 2.00 any given day. That's not much protection on the downside if it turns fast. And it could simply bounce intraday and take you out before it continues going back up.

It closed today at $17.51 but trade above $18.25 during the day. I would have like to have gotten out around there too, but set my second half sell a bit too high.

If I were to set a trailing stop at $15.51 tomorrow I could get taken out easy at barely a profit after out trade commission, but I can't play during the day, so what to do?

I'm going to cancel all orders and look at it again in the morning. I might just stick with the limit orders for now and take what I get. I don't know if the volatility in ZSL is a good fit for this unless I've made substantially more profit. Set it too low and you lose all unrealized gains, set it too high and you get kicked out before you were ready to bail.

At this point I would be happy out at 18.49 if it runs up, and out at 16.99 again if it turns, but don't want to get jerked on the open if it's going to keep running.

This is a dangerous animal these leveraged short funds, I don't think I'll be doing this very often, will be lucky to get out without getting skinned here.


This from Scottrade (http://www.scottrade.com)...

Trailing Stops for Beginners

By Kim R. Gibas, Senior Branch Manager, Delafield, Wis.
Trailing stop orders can be a very useful type of order, but they're commonly misunderstood. So, this is a follow-up article to Stop & Stop Limit Orders for Beginners that was published in the July issue of KnowHow News, and my goal is to demystify trailing stops for beginning investors.

Understanding Trailing Stop Orders

Trailing stop orders, like stop and stop limit orders, can help limit a loss or protect a gain. The key difference is that your order will move with the market and you will set a percentage or point trigger versus a set price per share. The trail will follow the stock as long as the stock continues to move in a direction that is favorable to you: up for a sell order and down for a buy order. Once the stock changes direction, the trail stays at its last price, and when the stock hits or passes that trail price, the order is triggered.
Your trail is updated based on the price of trades executed at or within the National Best Bid/Offer (NBBO), and the order also triggers off the NBBO (the bid price for sell orders and the ask price for buy orders).

Let's look at how this works with a few examples.

Sell Trailing Stop Orders
Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using a percentage:
Stock price is $38.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

As you can see, the trail is always 10% lower than the price of the stock. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $34.20 ($38.00 x 10% = $3.80; $38.00 - $3.80 = $34.20). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $46.80. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $46.00 in this case.

When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using points:

Stock price is $38.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

Once again, the trail is below the stock price by the selected amount, $3.00. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $35.00 ($38.00 - $3.00 = $35.00). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $49.00. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, or $46.00.

When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
In both examples, it is important to note, the trailing sell stop only goes up; it never goes down with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns downward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

Buy Trailing Stop Orders
Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using a percentage:
Stock price is $50.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

With buy orders, the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $49.50 ($45.00 x 10% = $4.50, $45.00 + $4.50 = $49.50). Then, when the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $31.90. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.
When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using points:

Stock price is $45.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

Notice the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $48.00 ($45.00 + $3.00 = $48.00). When the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $32.00. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.

When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
In both examples it is important to note, the trailing buy stop only goes down, it never goes up with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns upward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

The material provided in this article is for informational purposes only and its use does not guarantee a profit.

[burrocrat]

OK, two trades on today then,

buy SCHF at 29.99, Roth
sell ZSL at 18.49, Brokerage

[burrocrat]

OK, two trades on today then,

buy SCHF at 29.99, Roth
sell ZSL at 18.49, Brokerage

Picked up SCHF and got rid of all ZSL, that one is a crazy train. Watch out boys she likes to buck. +10% and still got my teeth, thank you lawd for letting me off that ride safe.

Also got an order in for SCHX at 31.99, it's getting close.

If I ever say I'm thinking about playing leveraged short silver would someone please smack me up side the head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJVr0vJK2rs

[burrocrat]

I put in a GTC limit buy for BRK/B at 79.99, they own BNSF and Gieco, trains and insurance commercials are some of my favorite things.

Plus, it costs exactly as much as my new watch. Long term hold for ROTH account.

[burrocrat]

Here's a customer service experience:

I wanted to do a trailing stop last week just to see how it works and couldn't figure it out on ZSL, (I'm not complaining, I made out just fine on the trade, but) it would be useful to know how to do that in the future.

So I called the 1-800 number at the top of the screen when I log on to my Schwab internet accouts and say into the anwering machine "I want to learn how to place a trailing stop."

In less than a minute a rep gets my vitals information and transfers me to a broker in Denver who is licensed to do business in my state. I explain how and what I trade with limit orders etc. and that they aren't going to be making a killing off me in comissions for a while at the levels I'm at. It turns out you need to have their 'active trader' software platform to place trailing stops and other advanced features, but it only takes a trading frequency of 36 per year among all accounts, and I'm on that pace, just haven't hit the totals.

It is all free and they don't care if your trades are mostly comission-free in-house ETF's. In fact, they will set me up with the upgrade at no cost for a trial period, and tutor me on how to use it. If I maintain that trading level I continue to have access, if not then back to where I was. No cost whatsoever.

They even scheduled me a session with a person with authority to uprade my account during a convenient time period next week to install software and place a trailing stop on UNG already in my account just to learn how it works, but not on Tuesday because there is a little league game that night. He also remarked 'good trade on ZSL, taking profits is not a bad thing, perfect spot for this type of order', and looks forward to working with me. He also wished the boy's team luck in the game next week. Now I have a direct number with extension and typical work schedule for questions or assist when needed from a live body. No cost unless I ask him to execute a trade for me, apparently the salary contract with Schwab covers all the questions and information for free.

15 minutes total in and out, pleasant, accurate, and quick, how's that for service?

[alevin]

Well now, maybe that esplains why I haven't learned how to use trailing stops myself. I only have choices of stop orders and stop-limit orders currently, with OptionsXpress. I don't do options-yet, just ETFs and stocks, but...Schwab is buying OptX this fall. and I hadn't gone for the 36 trades/ year deal at OptX due to cost of commissions and my account value aggregates being quite low yet. I can talk to real person pretty quick on phone tho, and get great customer service-they swear that won't change when Schwab takes over-prognosis is good from your recent experience.

So, what I'm hearing you say is that it'd be worth my while to go to the 36 trades/year deal-trailing stops and everything-at least once I have access to Schwab ETFs commission-free. they have access to ADRs too-which is something I don't have access to currently. excellent. starting to look forward to the merger/buyout.

[etftalk]

Here's a customer service experience:
Thanks for sharing. It's nice to know that service is still a priority with some firms.

Scottrade people seem very nice but I never tested them to see how far they'd go. :)

[burrocrat]

I put in a GTC limit buy for BRK/B at 79.99, they own BNSF and Gieco, trains and insurance commercials are some of my favorite things.

Plus, it costs exactly as much as my new watch. Long term hold for ROTH account.

Bought BRK/B @ $79.99 and SCHX @ $31.99 today for the ROTH acct.

Limit buy order in for SCHA @ 36.99, day only brokerage acct.

[burrocrat]

Never did get the SCHA for the brokerage account, prices still a little high for my taste, also looking at COW, but not buying yet for the same reason.

I bought MSFT @ 24.635 today for the ROTH, shareholders of record on May 19 get the dividend in June, I'm excited it'll be my first ever, and I checked the dividend reinvestment box so we'll see how it goes, longterm hold for this account.

[RealMoneyIssues]

Never did get the SCHA for the brokerage account, prices still a little high for my taste, also looking at COW, but not buying yet for the same reason.

I bought MSFT @ 24.635 today for the ROTH, shareholders of record on May 19 get the dividend in June, I'm excited it'll be my first ever, and I checked the dividend reinvestment box so we'll see how it goes, longterm hold for this account.

I had also thought of moving into MSFT, but all my spending money is locked up in stocks that, well, have gone down quite a bit recently...

Besides, I think my plan is to hit my sell points, and then just move everything into ETFs.

Good Luck Brother !

[burrocrat]

I picked up COW @ 28.99 in the taxable account there somewhere during the downtime.

[alevin]

Check the dividend-reinvestment box? cool. That will definitely be a Schwab value-add for my OptX accounts once the acquisition goes through. OptX currently makes it not easy to do div-reinvestment. Have to call them and find out if DRIP is possible for a particular stock, have them set it up from their end. Check the box availability will eliminate that barrier for me.

there will be more account fees coming when Schwab takes over (OPTX has free services that Schwab charges for @ 25/pop), talking to broker for free is one of those currently free services, but with check-the-box, I won't have to call broker to do div reinvestment. An acceptable tradeoff.

[burrocrat]

Schwab rep that set me up with upgrade trading status/software said OPTX buyout is still on for Q3, probably will exist side by side for a while, so you might have increased capabilities, but two interfaces at first, then will merge software at some point.

Streetsmart.com is what they call it, liveweb platform no download, see all your positions at once with current bid/ask rolling realtime, conditional orders like writing a query only with drop down choices and it translates into english for review before pushing the button, learning from the webinar tutorials right now, get a free hour one-on-one when I want it, I went for the set me up with the access and let me figure it out for a bit plan, I'll call you when I have a list of questions or tasks I want detailed help with, totally satisfied with customer service.

I have never paid any fees except on non-Schwab stock and ETF trades at 8.95 each way.