Good luck alevin!
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Good luck alevin!
I probably should have moved my comment in the "Shorting for Dummies" thread over to your new home. And brought a plate of cookies! :toung:
Welcome to the neighborhood!
Lady
Well, combining yesterday and Wednesday, bought and sold 3 ETFs paper trading, managed to lose 8% of my cash, but also managed NOT to lose 18% of my cash which would have happened in I'd stayed in SCO yesterday after buying on Wed. Wed. SCO dropped 8% after I bought, but I believe in cutting losses quickly, so once I realized the USO:SCO hedging wasn't working, (USO up, SCO way down), I put in an order yesterday before the market opened, to sell SCO at market. Still took 45 minutes after the open to get the order filled. If I hadn't gotten out right then, I'd have lost another 10% on the trade yesterday on top of the 8% I'd already lost. I'll post real numbers this evening when life slows down a little. I tried to post trade numbers last night but got timed out and kicked out before posting, didn't have mental energy and patience to log back on and try again.
It's a good thing I did screen prints of my paper trades the last couple days so I could study them offline. Logged in tonight and discovered the paper trades were wiped clean, all 6 of them that I did Wed and yesterday. Good to know, eh?
so ok, here's what I did on Wed.
FAS-sold short at market-good til close (that would mean the broker was able to borrow the shares from somewhere for me to sell, right?). Price $5.53. the bid-asks promptly dropped down into 5.14-5.15 range.
FAS-decided to snag a small profit (practice, remember?)-put in a "buy to close" order good til close, at market. Covered at $5.01. Gain= $22.00 and change-enough to cover commission for 1 leg and tax on the gain. Hah!
USO-bought limit order-$24.40. got scared. Sold same day, within the hour.
USO sold $25.51. Gain=enough to cover these trades plus second leg of the FAS trade.
SCO-bought Wednesday am (good til close)-looked like it was going up, bought at $49.25.
SCO-tanked that day-EOD 8%. Sold Thurs at market open-market order, good til close. can't find record of sale price but Whew! Only lost 9% of total cash on that one, SCO tanked another 10% EOD after I sold at open.
Hi Allie, thanks for posting your moves in such detail! As we're all learning together it helps me to understand the trades. :)
I need to do that too. I incurred an 8% tuition payment to ETF University that I should share with others so that nobody else does what I did. :nuts: I'll try to put the details together and share it over at my house.
Thanks again!
Lady
I'm sorry so frazzled lately I haven't even said thanks for the visit yet. As you can see, I'm still unpacking, boxes everywhere, no pictures on the walls, but making progress. The cookies were a great pickmeupper when I took a break. Thanks! There's a few left to share if anyone else comes by, but they're going fast. :bigsmile:
Well, OK. today was the day I jumped in and got wet-finally. I was hoping GLD would drop more before I bought my first position, but in the first hour it looked as tho I shouldn't wait any longer, so I went and bought at market.
bought GLD @ $91.17.
I still have 2/3 powder dry. Emotions took over this morning when I read KD Market-Ticker :eek:, so was not as calm and judicious as I normally try to be. I suspect I'll be hanging onto this position for awhile, but I have a trailing stop on it, so we'll see.
Filling out my spreadsheet tonight for seed I want to buy for first serious garden (read KD today-you'll want a garden too). Will send order in the morning. The tree service guy is coming in the am also-hope that when he gets done, there'll be a lot more sunlight in the backyard for garden space. I need it-too much shade in all the wrong places.
Stopped by local glass shop after work tonight to ask about junk windows and doors in their salvage yard-I was inquiring due to thinking about trying my hand at cold frame gardening-first time ever. They said I could have all the salvage windows and doors I want-for FREE! That definitely makes the cold frame idea more incentivized. I was anticipating paying a minor fee for what I might want. Recycling at its best, I love it! :bigsmile:
Congrats on the 1st trade and good luck alevin!
GDX and GTU were my very first purchases. I think you and I are both going to be happy with our picks! :) And congratulations on the garden! We had a small one last year, but we're pulling up half the sod in our back yard for a big garden this year and I think it's a good idea. Love your recycling into a cold frame garden idea! Let us know how it works out, okay? :bigsmile:
Lady
Thanks Lady, I'm happy with my pick so far, I think. Not stopped out yet. Am a bit confused tho about my trading program process. With the market buy order I set a trailing stop up of .5 pts (program wouldn't let me set trailing stop down).
The spread when I sent in the buy order was between 0 and 90.67 (ask and bid). It created the order after it filled it. How does that work? the record says the order was created at 11.59:15am, but the order was filled slightly earlier at 11.58:47. Do you get that? How do you create an order after its already filled?
My other puzzlement was that the screen said the trailing stop was up by .5 pts from 90.67 (which appeared to be market value when I sent in the order), and it filled the order at exactly .5 pts higher than 90.67 . It's like it moved the stop up before I bought and I bought at the new stop! And the record doesn't show an untriggered trailing stop still active at this point so I really think am not sure I still have a trailing stop on the darn thing. Does any of what I said make sense to you? to anybody?
Hi Alevin
Somehow you slipped under my radar. WELCOME to the Board :)
JTH-thanks! :) Gotta make up some lost ground somehow for the crashing and burning in the antique mutual fund Roth and regular IRAs I'm still stuck in and the miniscule growth in the TSP. I've written them off long ago. Retirement is still a number of years away yet tho, so this is my risk proportion of the stash right now, small, very small, but more fun, if I don't gamble it away in trade fees.
Never bought a single stock or ETF til now. I like learning index market behavior-TA and fundamentals and starting to feel somewhat competant there, but brain starting to hit saturation point for new stuff after the past 2 years concentrated crash course fiscal edification.
Many things still mysterious re single stock/ETF trading-see most recent post before this one. :confused:
I'm not a big fundlementals guy, but when I do look at them, I like AOL's format and the amount of information they provide. It's my one-stop-fundlementals-shop :)
http://finance.aol.com/quotes/advanc...es-inc/amd/nys
Hi all, thought I'd check in. Still figuring out my OptX account mechanics. My virtual trade setup says at trade permission level 0, I can short stocks. I tried to do that with AXO couple days ago in real account, it wouldn't let me. So last night I requested upgrade in real account to trade level 1-which definitely should let me short stocks, but they haven't upgraded me yet. I'm still at level 0-which corresponds to strictly cash account-I think. that's what I wanted initially and still, but I should be able to sell short, according to virtual trade account, so I'll be making phone calls next week to get this sorted out. I have enough in the real account to go on margin if I so choose, I'm just not ready to go out on that limb yet.
I'm also finalizing setting up Roth account, sending in paperwork today. Should be ready by next week. Once I get all these "minor" details figured out and resolved, I may become a little more active here. Still holding the GLD I bought recently. Prices back up to close where I bought in.
Oh yeah, when I make my phone call next week, I'm going to ask why the trailing stop setup only allowed me to set stop above the existing price, which pushed me into buying higher than the bid/ask was that morning (which I only figured out had happened after the fact). Lots still to get straight.
My virtual account, when I set it to trade level 0 still allows me to short, and also grants me margin-so inconsistent permissions relative to trade level 0 in real account, doesn't let me practice with conditions similar to what I have in real account-which is also aggravating-maybe they don't realize their system doesn't match between virtual and real accounts at that trade level. Will see. Next week. Later all, good trading!
Bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk! :nuts: that's my chicken imitation for those wondering. I just don't have the nerve to go after 3x'ers. Too much adrenaline rush, you FAS/FAZers should go read the FAS Addict stream of conciousness thread over on ticker-forum-it's a genuine in-the-moment classic true tale of 1 day's worth of gambling addiction. Well worth the read for you 3xers. I felt the addiction process jetting through his body even as I read it.
So for me, the sedate? DDG (that's 1x short oil and gas). bought limit order today at 74.00. Stop set at 71.5. May move it up in the morning. I hear there are bots that roam at night hunting stops so they know where to drive the price to the next day. will see what happens. I just didn't want to get caught too short by not having any stop at all while I'm at work and can't do anything. Peace of mind sort of thing, ya know?
My other "sedate" buy this morning was IBB, limit ordered at 64.5. It went down pretty big today tho-was "supposed" to go up :rolleyes:-I bought about halfway through the current spread. Maybe I'll set a stop in the am, depending on the early action.
So far, between my 3 adventurous buys, I'm only down about 1% (not counting commissions) as of today. Huh! Guess I don't call that awful, don't call it good tho either.
Well shucks. I guess I learn better by making real mistakes instead of virtual mistakes. I decided to bail DDG this morning after doing extensive analysis on other long/short oil related ETFs, decided USO is moving better than just about anything else at this point in contango cycle, which I'm still studying and starting to grasp, all too slowly, unfortunately.
Anyway, bought DDG @74 couple days ago, sold with stop order today @ 73.72 after watching streaming quotes this morning. Seemed like that was the best I'd be able to do today or week. Order filled quickly. I checked back a few minutes later and streaming quotes bid AND ask were both 74.4+!!! OK, don't have to hit me in the head twice. :(
Next time I do a stop-limit order or a stop with limit (may have to get help from OptX staff with that one, since the software doesn't give me sufficient direction how to do 1 vs.the other, looks like the same buttons get pushed, same price boxes used, not sure how to tell program to do 1 vs. the other.
Note to self: don't rely on sell-confirm signal on oil index or any other buy or sell (confirmed index signal) at Amer. Bulls alone, need to do charting due diligence with long and short ETFs both before jumping next time.:embarrest:
Wheeooo! Sure glad I didn't dump my GLD this morning when I dumped the DDG. I'd have been one sorry puppy tonight if I had. Fed/Treasury shenanigans may turn our world upside down in short order unintentionally, but upside down just the same and not a good scenario if it comes. My IBB shows a very firm doji/spinning top at the moment, will have to watch AH action and early am to make up my mind what to do about that. I'm considering my trading costs to be tuition fees at the moment. I hadn't planned on doing this much trading this soon, given the size of the pot I have to work with at present.
Lady found this wonderful site the other day, I've been taking full advantage. http://etfscreen.com
Based on what I'm seeing here, and also what I'm seeing in USO and USL and UGA charts and my shared belief with others here about general commodity direction going forward, I do believe I'll be putting $ into USO, DBC and/or DBE in the coming week and keeping there awhile.
http://etfscreen.com/graphcache/sl_6...SO+UNG+GAZ.png
Here's a cool correlation chart for these funds, from the same ETF site.
DBADBCDBEDBSGDXGLDGSGUNGUSLUSODBA1.00 DBC0.801.00 DBE0.650.911.00 DBS0.500.480.371.00 GDX0.430.520.410.711.00 GLD0.240.320.220.730.761.00 GSG0.690.910.920.390.480.231.00 UNG0.360.420.460.170.23-0.000.471.00 USL0.500.740.760.340.370.170.740.351.00 USO0.590.870.920.340.430.220.930.380.751.00These 126 day (6 month) correlations can be considered short term, focusing on recent price movements.
Correlations are only calculated for actively traded funds. As of: 2009-03-20.
Well, my IBB went up nicely today, almost back to even in my account, including trade costs. I don't like where the economy is gonna go, but hey trade the tape you're given, right? so I'm going long into DBC in the morning, put my limit order in tonight, below where the price range was today, ready for a pullback. If it doesn't come cuz I set the limit tooooo low, well, I'm still learning.
Tried to put a limit order in on DBE as well, but for some reason OptX thinks that's so special I need a PIN (in addition to my normal login password-what? I don't have a "PIN" in addition to my password-yet. don't even know what this is all about, the site says contact a rep, so maybe I'll do that in the am.
don't know why 1 ETF would require a PIN to place a buy order, another one doesn't, both are long commodity ETFs, guess I'll find out what the story is, but not tonight so I'm irked. I didn't want to have to muck around in the morning. high intensity work obligations are currently fully occupying my attention in the ams at the moment. easier to focus on this stuff in evening right now. oh well, least I got the DBC order in and the IBB went up today.
Bought IBB a few weeks ago at 64.5, sold today at 65.89. It was a gain, but not enough to cover the commissions so I'm down a little. thought about selling a piece of GLD today, decided against. Still got a good chunk of cash on the sidelines, even w/o the sale proceeds, so I'm prepared for tankage.
Learned something else about account management this am, wasn't able to do what I thought I'd be able to do...which was link my taxable to my Roth so I could transfer funds into my Roth a little more quickly, like we do with TSP between funds. Doesn't work that way, unfortunately. what the brokerage means by linkage isn't what I wanted it to mean. Bummer. They only mean that I can manage within each account from the other account, but I can't move funds back and forth between accounts. Rats! That means my 08 Roth account will be funded far less than I'd intended (I'd intended to move funds into Roth account from taxable account, which got started first), so I'll just have to save up harder to fully fund the 2009 Roth during the coming year.
I'm looking at turning off the TV and contributing those funds, since I rarely watch TV these days anyway. I'm also serious about making that change due to fact I haven't changed my cable service in 10 years, yet price has gone up 100% during that time-10%/year. Bad as the housing bubble. and yet the company is going bankrupt-(Charter). How does that work? Anyway, I figure I'll pull the plug-literally, within the next couple months if not sooner.
I'm using Options Xpress for the time being. they require all account setup paperwork to happen by snailmail, including setting up for electronic connection to bank account for funds transfers. Different sets of paperwork, different addresses to send paperwork.
I'm fully set up for e-transfers in the taxable account, it got set up first, I wanted to do some learning there so I wouldn't waste $ in Roth account in my learning curve about ETFs and stocks. Easier to replenish funds in taxable account than Roth, the way I was looking at it. Thing is, once I got some of the trading lumps and bumps evened out on the learning curve, I was going to split the funds in the taxable account and move half of them into the Roth account for 08.
I had to open the Roth account snailmail with a check to get it going, which just got done last week, so my move this week was to move the rest of the intended funds over from the taxable account. Oh well.
I am getting ready to send in the snailmail paperwork to have electronic funds transfer from bank account to Roth, but I don't have spare cash available at the moment to send from the bank account-all I had really to work with right now was the $ in the taxable account that's already there. I'll have more bank account funds later on for Roth 09, but I've lost the window for getting $ into Roth08. Live and learn. My bad for moving too slowly and only now figuring out more of the process lumps and bumps when it's too late for last tax year. :(
Maybe you could contact them (options x)and ask if they could do the transfer between your accounts with them. Do they have good customer service? Seems to me they should have that capacity. Hate to see you lose an opportunity for 2008 -- not trying to stick my 2 cents in your business. Never hurts to ask the question.
Debbie
Thanks for the suggestion, Debbie, I appreciate it, a lot. You're right, it doesn't hurt to at least try. I get frustrated at hitting roadblocks and give up all too easy sometimes. One of the biggest reasons I went with OptX was for their customer service, but they do seem to be sticklers for rules-which is also a really good thing, given all the fraud in the system these days everywhere we look. If they tell me it's not possible to do what I was hoping to do, I'll accept that and go down quietly and reset my attitude for better going with 09 funds. But I'll at least ask the question. thanks again for the suggestion, I wouldn't have gotten there on my own. Not today anyway. :wacko:
Well, I called this morning and asked the question. turns out it can be done-with an email request. Yay! the email has been sent. And the tree trimmers are back this morning and finishing the job. Another YAY! :D
A good day so far, I won't let market action spoil it. :bigsmile:
thanks for the moral support, you two. It helped. And I agree, the boyz have been hard at work. Feel like GLD and DBC are going down-watching commodity developments various web commentaries, now that I've cleaned the cash out of the taxable account, I'll have to raise new cash by selling something, not sure what tho, so watching and waiting to decide. all cash in the Roth account at the moment. that's where I'll be stashing dividend stocks and foreign flavors-for tax reasons. Trying to stay with cap gains stocks/ETFs in taxable account-now if I can just keep that game plan straight in my head over time...
Next move in the Roth account will be to move mutual fund Roth $ out of mfunds into brokerage account and start managing those funds myself, couldn't do worse than that particular mutual fund family has over the past several years-not just talkin since 07 either-try 02. :sick:
One last note on the funds transfer. It's a good thing I came home at noon today to pick up a couple items I needed after work that I'd forgotten to bring in the morning. I checked email re the transfer and saw where they said they couldn't do it due to unsettled funds from me selling IBB yesterday. I still had a partial wad of cash sitting on sidelines other than the unsettled funds-but I'd tried to include the new cash in the transfer as well, which gummed up the whole works. :wacko:
I thought you just couldn't buy new stocks with that cash during the settlement period, didn't realize couldn't even transfer it to another account same brokerage, same account holder!
I sent them back another email saying I had cash in the taxable account that weren't part of the unsettled situation, and to please transfer that amount anyway. Came home this pm to a message saying it did get done, so my 08 Roth account did get pumped up today, just not as much as I'd hoped it would. I could have sent a check postmarked today for the full desired amount, they told me, but as I said earlier, don't have it in the bank account right now, needed it to get drawn from the taxable account to extent they let me. Like I said, they come across as playing by the rules, which I appreciate totally even if the rules are sometimes aggravatin'. :rolleyes:
Hi Allie, just a quick visit to your home to mention that I really love your signature on our sister site. "Seek the truth...Ignorance is the cause of fear." With ETFs as with life, you've truly gone right to the core with that one! :)
Lady
:) Nice to hear, Lady. It's a value I live by-or try to.
Just an update re my account(s). No action yet in the Roth, but I now have tradeable funds to work with.
Tradeable account action-Last Wed, I sold my IBB for a gain (see earlier post), Friday I did decide to try to unload slightly less than half my GLD (coulda, woulda, shoulda dumped the entire amount for sake of trading cost if nothing else). Bought it at 90, sold partial at 85.55.
The way the action was going Friday am before I left for work, I didn't think I'd get the sell limit I'd set, since price action had already steadily slipped below that level by the time I put my order in and committed to it. It was a day order only, good thing I didn't say sell at close, since it closed lower than the come-back level I unloaded at later in the am after I left for work. So far ( mostly due to trading fees), I'm down about 6% between the two accounts total-losses incurred in the taxable account. The more I trade the more account fees eat into the capital base, even when I don't sell for a loss.
Gotta watch that way more closely and do even better job of picking things I'm willing to hold for longer periods, or things with high volatility where I can get in on the right side of the trade and have enough time available to react to price changes. Not sure what that will be yet, workin' on it tho.
I have also decided the hard way that in the last couple of months the only person I was making money for was my broker. I'm down way more in my account than 6% - like about 20% - because of the dumb moves I made with FAZ. That was an expensive lesson but I learned it well. Levered funds that rebalance daily might work for some folks but not for me!
Re the stock picking, I'm taking a book with me on my medical trip (leaving this morning) that may have part of that answer. It's called "The Ivy Portfolio" by Mebane Faber. I'll report back to the group on what, if anything :rolleyes:, I learned when I return.
Until then, good trading my friend!
Lady
OK, today I decided to go mod-high risk in the roth account. bought ATN (U.S. based exploration and production outfit) @ $15.76, already gone up enough to cover the transaction cost-yay! It's been tracking the broader market tho, hit bottom early March, been on sloooow climb back since then, which makes me think it won't hurt as hard when the market takes another dive at some point (if I don't get out soon enough). P/E is excellent at the moment as is Price/book value, but yield is quite high, so there is trouble there internally I suspect, will be keeping sharp eye on things. Bought in Roth account so wouldn't have to pay taxes on interest income. Fingers are crossed, my first single-stock buy.
My second move of the morning isn't going quite as well-bought BP in taxable account-would have preferred to get in Roth account but not enough cash there at the moment, so into the taxable it went. Already went down a few bucks since the buy at $43.35 too. :suspicious: Ah well, they are in major cost-cutting mode, so P/E may get even better. it has an excellent P/E and dividend yield at the moment, not as high a yield as ATN so paying tax on dividends wouldn't in taxable account won't hurt quite as much. Wouldn't Birchie be proud? :toung:
wow! I got in on ATN at a good time this morning, if had been earlier, could have scooped 11+% gain on the day with my morning buy. as it is, probably more like a 66 gain on the day (haven't run the calculations, rough estimate at this point). Enough to cover several of my less successful trades earlier on. But its my first single-stock buy, it pays a pretty high dividend and is cheap, so will plan on hanging onto it until P/E is 22 or more (read that as a sell rule of thumb for dividend stocks somewhere tonight). don't need to worry about dealing with short term capital gains on a sale sooner since its in the Roth account.
Wont talk about the BP buy yet-it was a slug today but not horrible. It's in the taxable account so intent is to hang on for longterm cap gains and dividends. My real plan is to put U.S. growth stocks, ETFs into the taxable account, put international and income/dividend stocks and ETFs into the Roth account. Forgot that part of the plan this am when I bought BP (foreign/dividend) for taxable. Probably cuz I haven't id'd any U.S. growth stock I want that bad for the taxable account yet.
Eeeew! Just realize there's a serious typo in my last post. :embarrest: Supposed to read 6%, NOT 66! Eeek. If I was that good at stockpicking, I wouldn't still be working a day job, I dont think.
Congrats!!, excellent job!!
You know the old axiom about letting your winners run? I'm so tempted to haul in on the reins, HARD! ATN up 5+% this morning on top of the 8% I managed yesterday. It's approaching the 200 MA on the weekly chart too-danger danger, will robinson!, but OTH, it's due for one of those big dividend distributions in the next week or so. What to do, what to do? Hang on tight and hold my hat, I guess.
Awesome, Allie! I just finished reading a trend trading book that kept pounding at the "let winners run" theme. But then, what do I know, I'm holding DNDN! :toung:
Lady