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Thread: Burrocrat's Account

  1. #91
    alevin Guest
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    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Glad someone around here pride-free enough to display confusion. I've had the same problem. the one time I tried to set a stop at the time I made a buy-it promptly went down and sold below my purchase price. Argh. so I've only set mental stops ever since. bad move? maybe, but I haven't lost $ because of it since then.

    I'm sure one of these days I'll pay. but I won't set stops until I understand what I'm doing-and I still don't, not when it comes to setting stops at time of purchase. big frownie face.

  2.  
  3. #92

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    906

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    Brokerage acct: ZSL in at $15.09, order to get out at $16.49 (1/2 position) and $17.99 (2nd 1/2).
    Looks like you're completely out. Nice trade!
    -- Tom | My Trades

  4.  
  5. #93

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    906

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.
    I stand corrected.
    -- Tom | My Trades

  6.  
  7. #94

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    906

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    Anybody, can you explain how it really works in plain english? Ideally using recent ZSL as an example?
    This from Scottrade...

    Trailing Stops for Beginners

    By Kim R. Gibas, Senior Branch Manager, Delafield, Wis.
    Trailing stop orders can be a very useful type of order, but they're commonly misunderstood. So, this is a follow-up article to Stop & Stop Limit Orders for Beginners that was published in the July issue of KnowHow News, and my goal is to demystify trailing stops for beginning investors.

    Understanding Trailing Stop Orders

    Trailing stop orders, like stop and stop limit orders, can help limit a loss or protect a gain. The key difference is that your order will move with the market and you will set a percentage or point trigger versus a set price per share. The trail will follow the stock as long as the stock continues to move in a direction that is favorable to you: up for a sell order and down for a buy order. Once the stock changes direction, the trail stays at its last price, and when the stock hits or passes that trail price, the order is triggered.
    Your trail is updated based on the price of trades executed at or within the National Best Bid/Offer (NBBO), and the order also triggers off the NBBO (the bid price for sell orders and the ask price for buy orders).

    Let's look at how this works with a few examples.

    Sell Trailing Stop Orders
    Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using a percentage:
    Stock price is $38.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    As you can see, the trail is always 10% lower than the price of the stock. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $34.20 ($38.00 x 10% = $3.80; $38.00 - $3.80 = $34.20). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $46.80. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $46.00 in this case.

    When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

    Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using points:

    Stock price is $38.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    Once again, the trail is below the stock price by the selected amount, $3.00. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $35.00 ($38.00 - $3.00 = $35.00). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $49.00. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, or $46.00.

    When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
    In both examples, it is important to note, the trailing sell stop only goes up; it never goes down with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns downward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

    Buy Trailing Stop Orders
    Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using a percentage:
    Stock price is $50.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    With buy orders, the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $49.50 ($45.00 x 10% = $4.50, $45.00 + $4.50 = $49.50). Then, when the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $31.90. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.
    When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

    Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using points:

    Stock price is $45.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    Notice the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $48.00 ($45.00 + $3.00 = $48.00). When the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $32.00. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.

    When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
    In both examples it is important to note, the trailing buy stop only goes down, it never goes up with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns upward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

    The material provided in this article is for informational purposes only and its use does not guarantee a profit.
    -- Tom | My Trades

  8.  
  9. #95

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    654

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.
    Good luck with it. When things run up fast like your ZSL has, that's when I like to use trailing stops, FWIW. Others' mileage may vary.
    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. - Derek Bok

  10.  
  11. #96

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    I adjusted the ZSL sell orders to 16.99 & 18.99, let's see if it wants to run again today.
    I'm out on the 16.99 for 50 shares, 1.90 x 50 = $95 - $8.95 x 2 for the trades in and out = 77.1 / 50 = $1.54 / in at $15.09 = ~ 10%. I'll take it.

    Is that how the math works when you guys do it? Plus, I only have to deduct the out commission on the next sell since I've accounted for the total in commission already.

    Make the trade pay for itself and then play with house money.

    It looks like it got up to about $18.25 today for a high, I wish I hadn't been so aggressive on the second half and got it out too. We'll see how it goes.
    Last edited by burrocrat; 05-04-2011 at 04:34 AM.

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  13. #97

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    I adjusted SCHH to sell at 28.88.

    Added a buy for SCHF at 29.99.
    I'm glad the SCHH REIT didn't hit, I really like my entry of 26.25 for a long term hold in the ROTH account, but if it goes that high I'll probably be happy with the gain. Looks like it turned down with the market today, going to have to sit on this one I think.

    SCHF international hit a low of $30.00, just missed my 29.99. Dang, so close, I would have liked that entry here.

  14.  
  15. #98

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Thanks for the help etftalk and XL-entlady.

    So the problem seems to be setting the right spread on the trail then. That's a tall order on the ZSL the way it jumps around, you could easy see +/- 2.00 any given day. That's not much protection on the downside if it turns fast. And it could simply bounce intraday and take you out before it continues going back up.

    It closed today at $17.51 but trade above $18.25 during the day. I would have like to have gotten out around there too, but set my second half sell a bit too high.

    If I were to set a trailing stop at $15.51 tomorrow I could get taken out easy at barely a profit after out trade commission, but I can't play during the day, so what to do?

    I'm going to cancel all orders and look at it again in the morning. I might just stick with the limit orders for now and take what I get. I don't know if the volatility in ZSL is a good fit for this unless I've made substantially more profit. Set it too low and you lose all unrealized gains, set it too high and you get kicked out before you were ready to bail.

    At this point I would be happy out at 18.49 if it runs up, and out at 16.99 again if it turns, but don't want to get jerked on the open if it's going to keep running.

    This is a dangerous animal these leveraged short funds, I don't think I'll be doing this very often, will be lucky to get out without getting skinned here.

    Quote Originally Posted by etftalk View Post
    This from Scottrade...

    Trailing Stops for Beginners

    By Kim R. Gibas, Senior Branch Manager, Delafield, Wis.
    Trailing stop orders can be a very useful type of order, but they're commonly misunderstood. So, this is a follow-up article to Stop & Stop Limit Orders for Beginners that was published in the July issue of KnowHow News, and my goal is to demystify trailing stops for beginning investors.

    Understanding Trailing Stop Orders

    Trailing stop orders, like stop and stop limit orders, can help limit a loss or protect a gain. The key difference is that your order will move with the market and you will set a percentage or point trigger versus a set price per share. The trail will follow the stock as long as the stock continues to move in a direction that is favorable to you: up for a sell order and down for a buy order. Once the stock changes direction, the trail stays at its last price, and when the stock hits or passes that trail price, the order is triggered.
    Your trail is updated based on the price of trades executed at or within the National Best Bid/Offer (NBBO), and the order also triggers off the NBBO (the bid price for sell orders and the ask price for buy orders).

    Let's look at how this works with a few examples.

    Sell Trailing Stop Orders
    Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using a percentage:
    Stock price is $38.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    As you can see, the trail is always 10% lower than the price of the stock. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $34.20 ($38.00 x 10% = $3.80; $38.00 - $3.80 = $34.20). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $46.80. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $46.00 in this case.

    When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

    Here is an example of a trailing sell stop using points:

    Stock price is $38.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves upward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    Once again, the trail is below the stock price by the selected amount, $3.00. At $38.00 per share, the trailing stop was $35.00 ($38.00 - $3.00 = $35.00). Then, when the stock took a downward turn, the trail leveled off at $49.00. When the stock price dropped past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, or $46.00.

    When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
    In both examples, it is important to note, the trailing sell stop only goes up; it never goes down with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns downward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

    Buy Trailing Stop Orders
    Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using a percentage:
    Stock price is $50.00 and trail percentage is 10%. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    With buy orders, the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $49.50 ($45.00 x 10% = $4.50, $45.00 + $4.50 = $49.50). Then, when the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $31.90. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.
    When using a percentage, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.

    Here is an example of a trailing buy stop order using points:

    Stock price is $45.00 and points are $3.00. In this example, you will see how the trailing stop price moves downward along with the stock price until the stock changes direction:

    Notice the trail stays above the stock price by your designated percentage until the stock price moves upward. At $45.00 per share, the trailing stop is $48.00 ($45.00 + $3.00 = $48.00). When the stock took an upward turn, the trail leveled off at $32.00. When the stock price rose past the trail amount, the order was triggered and was entered as a market order. This means it was placed at the next available price, which was $35.00.

    When using points, be careful to set it at a level that will pick up a true price drop as opposed to normal daily price fluctuations.
    In both examples it is important to note, the trailing buy stop only goes down, it never goes up with the market price. So, as long as the stock keeps rising or holds relatively steady, the order does not execute. However, if the market price turns upward and hits or passes your trailing stop, your order will be triggered.

    The material provided in this article is for informational purposes only and its use does not guarantee a profit.

  16.  
  17. #99

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    OK, two trades on today then,

    buy SCHF at 29.99, Roth
    sell ZSL at 18.49, Brokerage


  18.  
  19. #100

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Burrocrat's Account

    Quote Originally Posted by burrocrat View Post
    OK, two trades on today then,

    buy SCHF at 29.99, Roth
    sell ZSL at 18.49, Brokerage
    Picked up SCHF and got rid of all ZSL, that one is a crazy train. Watch out boys she likes to buck. +10% and still got my teeth, thank you lawd for letting me off that ride safe.

    Also got an order in for SCHX at 31.99, it's getting close.

    If I ever say I'm thinking about playing leveraged short silver would someone please smack me up side the head?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJVr0vJK2rs

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